Poor / misleading documentation
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Wolf0
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:37 pm
Poor / misleading documentation
Hello all.
I'm a new costumer of Milviz.
I've never bought a helicopter before for the simulator, although I've logged some hours on the default ones plus some more on some hovercontrol models.
My intention was to acquire a complex helicopter with high systems depth that had some range and navigation capabilities, remaining a good VFR aircraft at the same time to allow me to explore deeper into the sceneries and get some real helicopter knowledge at the same time.
The 407 fitted the bill and I was looking forward to learn how the systems worked and starting to enjoy this well reputed addon. And this is where the problem begins.
Prior to purchase I read the manual that's available on the product page (the 19 page leaflet) and confirmed that there was a 400+ manual available after installation to teach me the correct way to operate the systems plus what was modeled by Milviz.
But there is no manual available at all!
I'm now aware that somewhere along the road Milviz stopped distributing the said manual (I suppose) for copyright issues since it appeared to be the real helicopter manual. I can understand that. But still I feel like I've been cheated. The product is sold as having a detailed manual inside and that was a key factor on my decision to buy. I'm aware that I can purchase the real manual online. Probably I'll commit to that anyway. But that's a hidden cost of the product. That's misleading. And it's unfair to the new costumers since the older ones got the manual for free anyway.
Now I'm left with a complex helicopter installed. Beautiful looking but without guidance to operate it.
I want the most realist FDE installed. Is there some place where I can read something about it? No. There's a folder inside the sim called "Tough FDE". What should I do with it? Is this the most realistic FDE available? How should I install it? What are the differences to the "default" FDE?
These questions aren't answered anywhere on the 19 page leaflet that comes with the product!
I understand that this helicopter has received a marvelous support by Milviz since V1.0. Lots of service packs, improvements and continued support of the new versions of Prepar3d at no cost. This is great and is part of the reason I committed to buy the 407. But the new user can't be left alone with a product that has no documentation and that has years of confusing updates behind it!
I'd like to hear your comments on these lines.
Best regards,
Pedro Carvalho
I'm a new costumer of Milviz.
I've never bought a helicopter before for the simulator, although I've logged some hours on the default ones plus some more on some hovercontrol models.
My intention was to acquire a complex helicopter with high systems depth that had some range and navigation capabilities, remaining a good VFR aircraft at the same time to allow me to explore deeper into the sceneries and get some real helicopter knowledge at the same time.
The 407 fitted the bill and I was looking forward to learn how the systems worked and starting to enjoy this well reputed addon. And this is where the problem begins.
Prior to purchase I read the manual that's available on the product page (the 19 page leaflet) and confirmed that there was a 400+ manual available after installation to teach me the correct way to operate the systems plus what was modeled by Milviz.
But there is no manual available at all!
I'm now aware that somewhere along the road Milviz stopped distributing the said manual (I suppose) for copyright issues since it appeared to be the real helicopter manual. I can understand that. But still I feel like I've been cheated. The product is sold as having a detailed manual inside and that was a key factor on my decision to buy. I'm aware that I can purchase the real manual online. Probably I'll commit to that anyway. But that's a hidden cost of the product. That's misleading. And it's unfair to the new costumers since the older ones got the manual for free anyway.
Now I'm left with a complex helicopter installed. Beautiful looking but without guidance to operate it.
I want the most realist FDE installed. Is there some place where I can read something about it? No. There's a folder inside the sim called "Tough FDE". What should I do with it? Is this the most realistic FDE available? How should I install it? What are the differences to the "default" FDE?
These questions aren't answered anywhere on the 19 page leaflet that comes with the product!
I understand that this helicopter has received a marvelous support by Milviz since V1.0. Lots of service packs, improvements and continued support of the new versions of Prepar3d at no cost. This is great and is part of the reason I committed to buy the 407. But the new user can't be left alone with a product that has no documentation and that has years of confusing updates behind it!
I'd like to hear your comments on these lines.
Best regards,
Pedro Carvalho
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Krazycolin
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1728
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:18 pm
Re: Poor / misleading documentation
The manual will be updated as soon as I can get to it and the product page will also be updated to reflect your comment(s)
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Wolf0
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:37 pm
Re: Poor / misleading documentation
That sounds better. It will help prevent any further cases of misinformed buyers. It doesn't improve my situation, though.Krazycolin wrote:The manual will be updated as soon as I can get to it and the product page will also be updated to reflect your comment(s)
I was expecting a more diplomatic answer. For all it's worth I've made a purchase that wasn't fully met by your company. The least you could do was approaching me with (at least) any offer of help configuring the product. After all I hinted that I was intending to keep the product despiste of all the misleading information I was subject to.
So, let me try to get this thing going without having to ask for a refund.
Regarding the issues I've raised: can you please explain how to get the "though FDE" working? There are two files inside that folder: "Joysitck_Bell407.air" and "Pedal_Bell407.air". Should I pick one and replace "Bell407.air" with it? Which one? Should I just add them both to the "MILVIZ_Bell407" root folder (as far as I'm aware only one .air file is active)...
Are these files targeting different hardware configurations? I'm using a joystick (for the cyclic), but also rudder pedals.
Are these the "real" FDE files that are mentioned several times over the forum?
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Krazycolin
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1728
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:18 pm
Re: Poor / misleading documentation
If you're having trouble starting the bird, using the tough version isn't a smart idea.
I'll let someone else explain how to use it as we don't support it.
I'll let someone else explain how to use it as we don't support it.
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Wolf0
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:37 pm
Re: Poor / misleading documentation
Now that's just arrogant.Krazycolin wrote:If you're having trouble starting the bird, using the tough version isn't a smart idea.
I'll let someone else explain how to use it as we don't support it.
Where did I told you I had any trouble starting the helicopter?
You should be ashamed of your answers. Is this your costumer support? Instead of acknowledging your errors and offer solutions your response is to try to humiliate me?
Look, all I did was pointing a serious fault with the product you sell. And you are trying to divert the guilt by blaming me of not being able to use the product. That's unbelievable!
You have no idea what my skill level is and nothing that I wrote could ever let you assume anything from it. I'm having a really bad feeling about this costumer relationship that we're building here.
Why didn't you provide the answer for the question I asked? That's all I needed to know: how to install the "Tough FDE". You let me worry about how I use my purchases. Just limit yourselves to provide the costumer service you are denying me from.
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JonathanBleeker
- Posts: 3446
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:38 pm
Re: Poor / misleading documentation
Apologies for the misunderstanding. A lot gets lost in translation over the forums.
The reason the "tough" FDE isn't supported is because we have found more problems with it than it is worth to us due to bugs in the FSX engine. We are working on solutions to bypass these bugs entirely for all our helicopters but R&D labs takes a lot of time and we cannot make any promises.
With relation to starting, some of these bugs in the FSX engine make the turboshaft engine almost impossible to start depending on wind direction and speed relative to the helicopter. If I recall correct, the "tough" version of the FDE only aggravates these bugs, and the only reason we include it is because of user request by users who are willing to overlook the bugs in FSX in order to gain a certain experience.
The reason the "tough" FDE isn't supported is because we have found more problems with it than it is worth to us due to bugs in the FSX engine. We are working on solutions to bypass these bugs entirely for all our helicopters but R&D labs takes a lot of time and we cannot make any promises.
With relation to starting, some of these bugs in the FSX engine make the turboshaft engine almost impossible to start depending on wind direction and speed relative to the helicopter. If I recall correct, the "tough" version of the FDE only aggravates these bugs, and the only reason we include it is because of user request by users who are willing to overlook the bugs in FSX in order to gain a certain experience.
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Wolf0
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:37 pm
Re: Poor / misleading documentation
Hello.
I've asked a refund that was granted by Simmarket on the basis of misleading advertising by the time of purchase.
I know that since this thread started you've approached Simmarket to correct the advertising text stating that the product doesn't include the referenced flight manual. That is good news and I hope that it will suffice to prevent another case like mine.
Just for your (Milviz) consideration let me say that I'm sorry about this outcome. You've created a very good product and you should be proud of it. However you don't seem to care a lot for your costumers comfort. Maybe that's just because you put so much effort designing the product that you forget that you have to assist your costumers on whatever questions they have. Or maybe we just had a translation issue and things got misunderstood. Maybe.
The fact is that I felt insulted enough to throw a good product out of the window just to avoid dealing with your company. You may have really nice products but I wasn't treated properly. I was humiliated, ignored and you've assumed a lot of things regarding myself. You've assumed I had problems I never came across, nor mentioned. You've stereotyped me as your newbie costumer who has 14 years and won't read manuals. As such I must be experiencing every problem you've dealt with in the past with many other newbie costumers. That's disrespect and I wouldn't tolerate it.
And think about it. I started by saying that I was looking for a complex helicopter (that's a hint that I can and do read manuals) and all I wanted was a solution for the misunderstanding about the Bell manual that was advertised as included. I told you I was happy with the product. I just wanted a commercial solution for this issue, nothing more. Plus I wanted information about the correct install of the FDE. That has nothing to do with the problems your costumers have starting the engine after installing the tough FDE. I just wanted to make sure the correct files were in the correct place. You make no mention to that on your manuals. I've read it. And that's just that. I come from FS98. I've installed, created and modified my fair share of content throughout all these years. You never cared to find that.
Please learn to listen and be more considerate to your past and future costumers. Not everyone is the same and the quality of your products deserves a matching costumer support. It's not just about keeping old products updated.
Best regards,
Pedro Carvalho
I've asked a refund that was granted by Simmarket on the basis of misleading advertising by the time of purchase.
I know that since this thread started you've approached Simmarket to correct the advertising text stating that the product doesn't include the referenced flight manual. That is good news and I hope that it will suffice to prevent another case like mine.
Just for your (Milviz) consideration let me say that I'm sorry about this outcome. You've created a very good product and you should be proud of it. However you don't seem to care a lot for your costumers comfort. Maybe that's just because you put so much effort designing the product that you forget that you have to assist your costumers on whatever questions they have. Or maybe we just had a translation issue and things got misunderstood. Maybe.
The fact is that I felt insulted enough to throw a good product out of the window just to avoid dealing with your company. You may have really nice products but I wasn't treated properly. I was humiliated, ignored and you've assumed a lot of things regarding myself. You've assumed I had problems I never came across, nor mentioned. You've stereotyped me as your newbie costumer who has 14 years and won't read manuals. As such I must be experiencing every problem you've dealt with in the past with many other newbie costumers. That's disrespect and I wouldn't tolerate it.
And think about it. I started by saying that I was looking for a complex helicopter (that's a hint that I can and do read manuals) and all I wanted was a solution for the misunderstanding about the Bell manual that was advertised as included. I told you I was happy with the product. I just wanted a commercial solution for this issue, nothing more. Plus I wanted information about the correct install of the FDE. That has nothing to do with the problems your costumers have starting the engine after installing the tough FDE. I just wanted to make sure the correct files were in the correct place. You make no mention to that on your manuals. I've read it. And that's just that. I come from FS98. I've installed, created and modified my fair share of content throughout all these years. You never cared to find that.
Please learn to listen and be more considerate to your past and future costumers. Not everyone is the same and the quality of your products deserves a matching costumer support. It's not just about keeping old products updated.
Best regards,
Pedro Carvalho